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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.15 23:19:00 -
[1]
Ummm. So thats over 1km/s speed with AB. So basically FRIGATE will outrun (mitigate most of damage) any ANTI FRIGATE missile (be it rocket or standard).
This is bad idea tbh. You already need to 2x web frig to actually deal any decent DPS with rockets. With this boost even after 3x web they will go 200+m/s which in the end gives them total missile immunity and renders anti-frig missile boats useless.
On the other hand if you do boost missiles to counter AFs then normal frigates will just get obliterated.
TBH if anything you should have learned from nano nerf: changing speed on a ship changes almost EVERYTHING. So yeh, imo its bad idea. As much as id love to kill any hac/bs i can catch with AF i think this change is badly thought and you really shouldnt mess any more with ship speeds.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.16 10:48:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/09/2009 10:49:45
I must agree with Cpt Branko.
The issues i see:
- totally screwing missile system
- being mostly immune to webs (single web dropping jag from 1500 to ~1000m/s is NOT gonna stop it, 2 webs = ~500m/s after stacking penalties, 3 webs ~350m/s - this is FAST)
- being immune to med/large sized ships - some might say its good but tbh the ONLY ship that will be able to kill AFs now (from med sized ones) will be curse and ishtar with neut. if AF is injected? it can kill all t1 and t2 cruisers and BCs. even against battleships its win unless it meets domi - here its the same case as with curse/ishtar
- being immune to small sized ships - nothing will be able to "solo" fend off AF except for other AF. like above: if ceptor gets close to actually web it, its MWD will die and ceptor will either die a horrible death or AF will just get out from his range
EDIT:
also its hilarious that anti-fast/small ship huginn (TP/web bonus = counter to small and fast ships amrite?) will be just obliterated by ANY AF. it already has hard time fighting them and with AB speed boost? easy kills
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:20:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
- being mostly immune to webs (single web dropping jag from 1500 to ~1000m/s is NOT gonna stop it, 2 webs = ~500m/s after stacking penalties, 3 webs ~350m/s - this is FAST)
Not true. 1 web - 1500 -> 600, 2 webs - 286, 3 webs - 188.
Ops, looked at webs other way round. My bad.
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Not true. Arazu/lachesis with long-range dis, rails and MWD, rapier/huginn with artillery, 1-2 webs and MWD, pilgrim, falcon/rook just put AF into permajamm. Just keep out of scram range when you have long-range weapons. Rapier with 2 webs and MWD should be able to escape from AB+scram assault - it's just faster.
Ummm. You know that "winning" = killing af. Not forcing it to disengage. Arazu with rails will die to AF (af will just close in and kill razu). Falcon/rook can permajam it and? Missiles will not hurt 600m/s (one web) AF at all. Rapier/razu if it actually ends within 15km of AF is dead meat. One hit with scrambler and AF suddenly is faster (hugs/raps mount 2 webs = ~286m/s which is much faster than rapier hull).
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Not true. Sentinel, and also Kitsune. Beamsader with a decent setup should handle most of AFs even with speed bonus. Any other long-range MWD+disruptor AF should be able to keep outside of scram range.
Overheat. This is enough to kill all under 20km ships. Sentinel can tickle it but in fact most AFs can kill it drones and just catch ship (if injected) or move away and get out. Most sentinels will cap as soon as enemy ship caps out. And guess who has more EHP? Kitsune sure can permajam but again: cant kill. Rockets dont work vs 600m/s AB frigs (and thats 1 web i doubt any kitsune packs 2-3 webs). Long range AF = status quo. AF being AF counter is like nano being nano counter.
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All i can say is 'lol'. How do you plan to kill huginn with AF? It will hit you just fine because of comparable speeds.
The same way you kill huginn with taranis or 2 other ceptors. Killing it before it kills you. And scrambler+AB on frig = death for huginn.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 16/09/2009 11:27:31
Add heating to the 1500m/s. Personally, I roll with HG alpha + LG snakes... that results in some ludicrous overheated speeds.
A cruiser is simply dead if it's in scram range, unless it's a neuting droneboat, T2 cruisers included.
Pretty much this. And as a bonus: 1500m/s speed is more-less the speed of typical HAC. So who overheats 1st (or longer) wins. Thing is: cruiser to win need to keep range all the time. AF to win needs to get to 12km range (11,8? overheated t2 scram). Plus remember that AB cycles for 15 seconds not 10 so can keep OH longer.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.16 11:53:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/09/2009 11:54:13
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
How would TD'd AF w/o tracking bonus kill drones? Even sabres can't do that with 10% bonus. Under 2-3 neuts of sentinel you won't get enough cap for AB until it's out of cap boostes.
Its enough to move over 500m/s to kill drones with small guns (as soon as you break from their orbit they dumb down and follow with orbit speed till you are away - easy kills). And yeah im usually killing warriors ii with my sabre if its possible. Easy even with barrage.
As for 2-3 neuts from sentilen - remember it also has to get cap. mwd, td, injector, disruptor? 1x td is not enough and cap-out time is similiar. Injeect once on AF, overheat AB and you land on top of soon-to-be-dead sentinel.
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Long range AF = status quo. AF being AF counter is like nano being nano counter.
So current AFs with MWD are nano? About which nano era are we talking? I thought that 'signature-tanking' nano - AF with additional boost to AB.
Its exactly same problem as with nano. It can escape most fights easily (1500+overheat = free ride home). It can evade most of gun damage by just keeping AB on and orbitting. It can literally NEGATE missile damage by keeping AB on. try to hit 1500m/s AF with rockets/standards and tell me how fast is he dying. do this with precission heavies (3rd hardest hitting missile type vs frigs) and you will see how hilariously bad it is.
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Besides, it should be REALLY hard to break into 10 km range as huginn has 40-50 km web.
Neiglible distance. If its not scrambled then the fight might as well not happen.
Also you are forgetting lock times. If you see huginn - you start AB(overheat if you manage) and head to him. Lock time will be around 5seconds or so - enough to close the gap and get under his webs where you can screw his tracking.
EDIT:
still everything up sums it up. even if you include huginn you really have only 2-3 counters to AB AFs: another AB AF and huginn/rap. And curse (maybe sentinel). Now can you list me counters to nano ships? Another nano ship - check. huginn/rap - check. Sometimes curse (vs non-injected nanos) - check. Hmmmmm.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.16 17:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ulstan
I think the proposal does have merit. Currently AF are not viewed all that favorably - they tend to get beaten out by vastly more cost efficient T1 cruisers.
And HACs get beaten by t1 BC. And commands get beaten by t1 BS. Your point? Or maybe we should get same invulnerability for HACs and commands vs larger ships? I propose getting exactly same boost for both ship classes. Then within next 2 years we can create new game balancing patch called "speed nerf". Owait...
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.18 11:27:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/09/2009 11:33:23
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 18/09/2009 11:32:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- Still dies to a properly fitted HAC/BC
Uh, no.
Cerb - will not kill new AFs
Eagle - sniper one is too far to begin with anyways, beagle with 1 web is not gonna work (but possibly can tank AF for quite a bit if its active tanked)
Zealot - if AF gets in scram range its dead
Sacri - it might tank some AFs if 2x repped till runs out of cap bootsers. then heavier AFs will kill it, weaker ones still wont break 1x rep. often sports neut so this one can be major pain for AF pilot
Deimos - easy kill unless sporting neut (most dont)
Ishtar - will kill AF if it has neut. If it doesnt, it will probably die.
Vaga - if it somehow manages to stay at 20km range and af doesnt run on overheat or doesnt close in to 10km it can kill it. Under 10km 1 neut + 5 drones its all it has for defense. Annoying but you can re-launch AB or scram under neut anyway.
Muninn - havent seen those for ages, dunno how ya fit them so n/c.
So out of 7 hacs (im countinig muninn out coz i udnno about it) AFs will easily kill 4 (cerb, eagle, zealot, deimos), struggle with 1 (vaga) and usually wont kill 2 (ishtar and sacri).
BC class has it easier because most of them can mount neut + drones easily while sporting enough mids for webs + injectors and decent tank.
EDIT:
and lmao at AML cerb set up for killing frigs not killing jag and guy says "probably intended". Stop smoking or pass some to me.
If AML cerb cant kill frig then no missile frig will kill it either. Missile frigs lack slots for painters/webs and their max dps from missiles is about half of cerb.
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Even without neuts, a TP+webed AF (Jag vs. Sacri) going down pretty fast, but I like the new bonus anyway.
You think so? Coz light missiles (which deal much more DPS to smaller ships than heavies or heavy assaults) coulnt kill jag so i cant see how even worse setup ship can do this.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.18 11:57:00 -
[8]
AF can kill light drones fast enough not to die from them. Even ceptors can do this (but its a bit more tricky).
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.18 14:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ivanna Nuke
Just done some fleet flying with an ishkur, and wow, such a change for the better.
The whiners can really go stfu, never had so much fun on EVE as I had with my ishkur over this past hour.
Excellent change. 
Give me death ray for crusader so i can say: "never had so much fun on EVE as I had with my crusader over this past hour."
fun for you =/= balanced. And this is balance thread now "how much fun i can get by using overpowered ship".
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.18 14:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kallana Wren
I'm sorry, but in the quiet words of the virgin Mary, Please come again? Bellicose does 1750 m/s with a tech II mwd and no speed mods.
AFAIK minmatar cruisers are one of fastest. Ishtar does around 1,4km/s, cerb around 1,3km/s (+-100m/s cant remember exact values). So MWD hacs end around 1,3-1,5km/s. What are speeds of AB AFs? 1,2-1,5km/s? Even AB HAC cant keep up with MWD BS. So yeh its another reason why its wrong. Breaks typical AB vs class higher MWD ship game.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.18 15:00:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Completely agree with you Deva, HACs need an AB bonus too.
Exactly what ive been saying. Give AB bonus to HACs too. Then in 1-2 years create "speed rebalance patch" to fix the "issues that noone earlier predicted".
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.18 19:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Having missiles is not a license to freely wtfpwn all frigates.
Actually having light missiles (used from assault launchers) + target painter + flare(s) + web + booster IS a license to kill all frigates that dare to enter web range. If this is not a license then what else do you propose for missile ship? Pray that frigate stops and self-destructs?
eve is and always was rock-paper-scissors. frigs are paper, AML + above mods are scissors. But in this case you are creating scissors-resistant ship.
And as for previous posts - no i didnt try them out yet, my sisi client is a bit screwed. I did however fly AB frigates for quite a while already on TQ and i did solo cerbs and drakes using normal AB bomber + know how light missiles hurt/should hurt. And rest boils down to simple mathematics. same speed as i got in bomber (bigger radius) non-webbed given to AF is enough to be resistant to all missiles. Bigger speed (and AFs will have bigger speeds than bombers coz they are naturally faster) means almost invulnerability. Which was already confirmed by test posted earlier.
And no, some changes dont even need to be tested "live", they can be "eft warriored". If ship does 100dps to frigate and suddenly its speed doubles he will do (more-less, cba to enter into maths now) half the damage. Which can as a result enter "invulnerable" area. As shown earlier, again.
Plus AB ceptors are more-less what CCP is proposing to do with AFs (minus tank plus some speed). And AB ceptors can already solo the HACs listed above (hell i did almost solo zealot in rocket malediction - unfortunately guy had medium neut from old 4 gun 5hislot fitting and ran on 10% armor).
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.19 13:47:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/09/2009 13:54:34
Originally by: Jack Jombardo
I spoke about non overheated speed and as a solo AF with perma overheat will very soon a non-AB AF, it will die even faster ;)
AB can be overheated for quite a long time. MWD on frig dies (always) after 4th cycle = 40 seconds. AB should work 8 cycles x15 seconds = 120 seconds = 2 minutes. Ofc i assumed MWD style heat buildup (so 50% heat after 1 cycle, 100% after second). If heat buildup is lower then it can probably work even longer than 2 minutes.
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